The Gaming Den

Presenting: The Link!
So I've been looking around for some interesting RPGs for a change of pace, and I stumbled upon Fantasy Flight Games' Grimm. It is a setting where the PCs are children from the real world who get trapped in the Grimm Lands, and the game focuses on the PCs finding a way back home. I have heard that the company is making a non-d20 version to be released this month. As much as I'd like to talk about it, the current one available is the d20 version.
In the d20 version, character levels go up to six. The archetypes are a combination of class and race; the ones available are Jock, Nerd, Bully, Dreamer, Popular, Outcast, and Normal.
Due to it being a shorter campaign, characters gain feats at 1st level, 2nd level, and every even-numbered level thereafter.
For ability scores, regardless of generation, you roll 2d8 for Strength. It cannot be changed once rolled. This is a problem if you roll low and want to play a Jock or Bully.

The Bad: Imagination Points are really versatile and powerful. If you spend enough points, you can change things around you, such as spontaneously generate item(s) for a short duration, make a stupid monster do a stupid action, bonus(es) on skill check(s), and with some unique class features, exchanging said points for ability score increases. Heck, just be a Dreamer with mad Wisdom, and you'll have enough Imagination Points to pull you out of many jams. Imagination Points are really powerful if you have fewer encounters than average, as you gain them back per rest period (whether it is hours or days, I forget).
While it looks like an awesome game, I have several fears for it, due to the d20 system;
The game is not meant for Hack and Slash, as the PCs do not have the phat loot, spell casting ability, or other stuff, and it did not address how drastically this would affect Challenge Rating in the 1-6 levels, as anything higher would be really tough for Grimm PCs.
In addition, due to the nature of magic, d20 spells still exist, except that characters must learn each spell separately, and Evocation and Necromancy Spells are the only schools banned from PC use.
Still, it is more than possible for the Nerd with Mage's Apprentice to do the old Planar Binding/Shapeshift/Polymorph fiasco, but this should not happen unless the GM is plain crazy. Overall, a HUGE portion of the PHB spells do not suit a fairy tale setting well.
In short, I really like the setting, but the rules leave much to be desired for a proper "fairy tale/horror" feel.

I have always really enjoyed products from Fantasy Flight. They've been inspired if not mechanically perfect (what is?). I'm not sure where you pulled the details about the game from - because the page you linked to is only non d20 - but I'd totally put the non-d20 version on my Christmas list (provided the mechanics aren't overly complex; which I doubt they are).

I concur that a lot of great ideas come out of Fantasy Flight. However, I really thought d20 was a bad match for this game. Really, many of the archetypes don't have anything to do.

Seriously, in this kind of story, if you're the big strong kid you're supposed to be able to fight off a goblin from time to time. Eventually you're supposed to Narnia out and go hamster style on people with a magic sword. But it's d20 and you have a strength of 9, that isn't going to happen.

Within the level limit, being a 12 year old dreamer still makes you more hard core in melee than being a nine year old bully. But it doesn't really matter because neither one of you can actually beat a D&D werewolf even if you have a magic sword.

So I'm actually quite looking forward to a setup that isn't d20 based. Hopefully being normalized to its own setting will prevent the "fighters" from getting shoved off the random number generator.

-Username17

Maj at [unixtime wrote:1192080284[/unixtime]]I'm not sure where you pulled the details about the game from - because the page you linked to is only non d20 - but I'd totally put the non-d20 version on my Christmas list (provided the mechanics aren't overly complex; which I doubt they are).

That's odd, I meant this page.
I really like the idea and story of the game. I just hope that the publishers don't delay it for another season. It was supposed to be released three years ago.

They didn't show up to Silicon, so I was a bit peeved I didn't get to see their stuff even though they were on the schedule.

-Crissa

Now for a rundown on the archetypes and my opinion(s) of them.

Bully: A rather underwhelming class, it is intended more to be a "damage sponge/trickster," as the Dreamer is the real combat machine of Grimm (look at Dreamer's 6th level class feature and Imagination Points). The Bully is restricted mostly to taunting for optimal specialization, unless you rolled really high on Strength.

Dreamer: This archetype is to Grimm what the Cleric, Druid, and Wizard are to D&D; at high enough levels, it fights better than the "Fighting" archetypes, which is just plain sad. The fact that the 6th level class feature can transform you into an ultimate combat monster just adds insult to injury.

Jock: Performs best at physical activities and combat, moreso than the Bully. This does little to help, as the low number of Imagination Points and penalty to all mental ability scores it sub-par to the Dreamer.

Nerd: Unless you are going to be learning spells and expect the GM to provide useful ones, stick with the Dreamer. Other than that, the Nerd gets bonuses to solving puzzles and can rationally apply the laws of physics to fairy tale creatures in order to make said monster(s) lose their "magical powers."

Normal Kid: You get bonus feats, all good saves, well-rounded skills, base attack bonus, hit points and a "life-lesson" class feature at 6th level. This does nothing to alleviate the pain of their weakness: Whenever the Normal Kid is in a situation where a monster may randomly harm the characters, the Normal Kid is ALWAYS picked. Hope your party has a meat shield bodyguard, otherwise you are nothing more than a red shirt, which is what the class is supposed to be. Good job, Fantasy Flight Games, for false advertising! A well-rounded, jack-of-all-trades class which is actually Dog Chow in disguise. However, the "life-lesson" class feature can be wildly different, depending on which ability that you select; you could become a Faerie and fly, gain an animal companion, become a Prince/Princess with a talking horse and magic sword/bow, the options are vast. But if you have even an inkling on optimizing your character, you will take Maturity; the effects are that you "grow up (mentally, that is)," lose all imagination points, and you gain a permanent bonus to Wisdom for every 2 Imagination Points lost, automatically succeed at all Will Saves, and gain permanent True Seeing.

Outcast: You are the "Thief" of Grimm: You sneak around, get Sneak Attack, and have Defense (Armor Class) and Reflex Saves up the wazoo. Overall, a good class.

Popular Kid: The "Diplomancer." You are at your best when in social situations and a born leader. You can Inspire Confidence, as the D&D Bard, plus you can declare another kid your "Boy/Girlfriend," and grant them one permanent Imagination Point, plus the ability to transfer damage to your significant other. Having such a character in your party is at his/her best when helping others. Overall, another good class.

In addition, each class has a weakness, which can be bought off by a feat called "Maturity" at 4th level or higher. The Weaknesses are obviously unbalanced; the Outcast cannot speak to non-kids without succeeding at a Will Save. No problem for anti-social players. The Normal Kid's "Red Shirt" weakness is deadly for any type of player.

Feats: Instead of the plethora of "+2 to two skills" feats, they are all consolidated into one feat called Gifted, and the +2 bonuses can be applied to any two skills of the character's choice.
Wielding large, knightly weapons is Knightly Prowess, which requires a Strength of 15, Charisma of 13+, two prerequisite feats that do not center on combat (Noble Spirit and Promising), and the feat itself merely makes "knightly weapons" be considered one size category larger for the purposes of damage. The Knightly Prowess feat mentioned earlier, ironically, are the least worth it to the "Tough" archetypes, the Bully and Jock. The two prerequisite feats grant bonuses when protecting others (Noble Spirit) and interacting with Nobility (Promising), something I do not expect most Bullies and Jocks (unless it involves protecting other Jocks) to do. Oh, and the feat "Hide and Seek" gives a +3 bonus on Stealth and Notice (Listen and Spot) checks. Picking Skill Focus or Gifted over this feat is a subpar choice unless you plan on taking said feats later to stack with "Hide and Seek."

Skills: Climb, Jump, and Swim are consolidated into Athletics, Balance, Escape Artist, and Tumble are consolidated into Nimbleness. Heal and Survival become Boy Scout Stuff, while the Knowledge skills are Fairy Tales (most useful Knowledge), Science, and Sports. Bluff Disguise, Forgery, and Intimidate become Trick, while Diplomacy, Gather Information, and Sense Motive becomes Socialize. Listen, Search, and Spot become Notice. Hide and Move Silently become Sneak. Fairy Tales eclipses the other two Knowledge skills by a huge margin, because a successful check can help tell which fairy tale creatures have been "twisted" in the Grimm Lands, and thus can help prepare for future dangers. The two "household" tasks, Home Economics and Industrial Arts, are rolled to complete tasks to get into peoples' good graces or avoid punishment; the Charisma bonus on subsequent skill checks is +2 for every 4 points by which you succeed. Overall, not useful unless you get captured by an evil stepmother who forces you to perform chores upon pain of death, time which can be better spent trying to escape.

There are also Origin feats, which are takent upon character creation as one of the first level feats. Overall, they are fine and balanced, except that Rich Kid grants a permanent magic item that is like a wondrous item worth 2,000 gp or less, no restrictions. To prevent abuse, stick to the DMG so the player doesn't suggest some magic item that is incredibly powerful from another book.

The Good: It is like a rules-lite version of D&D, which makes it easier to locate the few rules that are incredibly unbalanced. The Focuses (special items that represent the kids' hopes and dreams) are great ideas, but I heavily encourage making the PCs make their own instead of choosing the example ones; the Baseball Bat Focus can go through all forms of damage reduction. In addition, weapon armor proficiencies have been done away with; if you can wield it or wear it, you can use it. However, weapons two or more size categories larger than the user are still impossible to wield.
Defense bonuses are nice to use when you don't want to wear armor, making even the normally defenseless Nerd have a high enough Defense against the average mook.

This sounds like an absurdly bad match with d20. Possibly deserving of a place on a top 10 list of All time Worst d20 Implementations.

But on the 'Normal Kid', first it seems odd that they get so much, mechanically, as it seems far above the 'norm'. Second, its entirely appropriate for the kid without a personality to be dog chow. Its what they are for...

Voss at [unixtime wrote:1192336625[/unixtime]]This sounds like an absurdly bad match with d20. Possibly deserving of a place on a top 10 list of All time Worst d20 Implementations.

And this is why I can't wait for the stand-alone RPG to be released.

Also, does such a top ten list exist?

This is the internet. If it didn't before, it was spontaneously created the moment it was mentioned.

One more thing; at 5th level, the Dreamer gets "I Think I Can" class feature, which allows him to take 20 on any skill check and have the time reduced to complete the skill becomes a standard action, with unlimited uses; Dreamers at high levels also become skill monkeys in addition to combat monsters.
So why be any other class?

Edit: However, don't get me wrong; I love the fluff of Grimm, but the crunch is just plain bad.